tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post7541754000596410721..comments2024-03-22T05:15:17.042+02:00Comments on Sudden Debt: Payrolls and GridsHellasioushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03564511281240682625noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-85138770529084481042009-01-14T09:39:00.000+02:002009-01-14T09:39:00.000+02:00Anthony and Steve:I was wondering the same thing. ...Anthony and Steve:<BR/><BR/>I was wondering the same thing. Hell seems kinda vague on HOW this "smart" technology, of letting my toaster and microwave "talk" to the power company is going to "revolutionize" America and show the world we still "lead the way."<BR/><BR/>So, I googled a bit, and guess what I found: Google and G.E. are teaming up to push this technology (and guess what? G.E. manufactures it, and Google is financing "alternative energy" start up companies, what a coincidence!!), and even then, I still can't make out HOW it "revolutionizes" anything except having some busybody at the power company take a peek at what my power usage is every 15 minutes.<BR/><BR/>However, it does WONDERS for the bottom line of G.E. and Google.....<BR/><BR/>But: HOW DOES THAT DO ANYTHING POSITIVE for the economy, Hell? Prolongs G.E.'s coming collapse?<BR/><BR/>We already have the capability to install "net meters" for those that want to tie into the grid and sell their excess "alternative energy", like solar or wind, so this is nothing NEW. Been around for years and years.<BR/><BR/>These "smart" meters just seem like an intrusion of privacy, with the capability of some unknown busybody shutting down your power if they think you are using too much, or at the wrong time of day. One of the "best" comments in one of the articles was: "Power companies charge more for daytime usage, so if we could get everyone to use their dishwasher at 10:00 pm, instead of 10:00 am, then we would save money."<BR/><BR/>NOT IF "everyone" starts using power at night in won't!<BR/><BR/>Geez, what passes for "intelligence and innovation" these days.<BR/><BR/>Yes, it will create temporary jobs running transmission lines from the desert (solar) and mountain/ocean front (wind) areas to the high usage metropolitan areas, but then what?<BR/><BR/>The power companies will still charge us the same rate as coal/nuclear powered plants, THAT I GUARANTEE.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and get this: The power company rep in Missouri, where they are going to try a pilot program of electric and water "smart" meters PROMISES meter readers won't lose their jobs, just get "reassigned."<BR/><BR/>I don't believe that, but if true, then WHERE IS THE SAVINGS???? HOW???<BR/><BR/>They will have to spend millions for the meters and Windows software to implement the program....and who pays for THAT? US!<BR/><BR/>How's about the government just gives us ALL a printing press, and gets the F out of the way!! Just as likely to succeed as these idiotic notions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-51827015138704165972008-12-15T15:55:00.000+02:002008-12-15T15:55:00.000+02:00Just to clarify, my compromise is offered to Betty...Just to clarify, my compromise is offered to Betty, Anthony, and Steve. If it were up to me, I would go all-out for the smart grid. As an example, it would really help with water heaters because they use so much power, can store a lot of energy, and are hiding in the background.<BR/><BR/>Another alternative is to use variable metering, as in the previous post, but offer users their own computer which they control themselves to turn things on and off in response to price signals. Better yet, entrepreneurs can compete to provide the best computers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10058773324081922244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-62589450596222535392008-12-15T15:07:00.000+02:002008-12-15T15:07:00.000+02:00How about a compromise?Instead of the power gestap...How about a compromise?<BR/><BR/>Instead of the power gestapo talking with your fridge and computer, just have a display in every home and business that tells you what the rate is for the next couple hours and you can decide how to deal with it, yourself. Allow the rate to rise as much as needed to keep the grid functioning. Sure beats rolling blackouts. Might even reduce crap like the California 2000 mess. Maybe customers with a poor payment history could get cut-off for a few hours if they don't cut back on their own.<BR/><BR/>The same idea is the subject of a book whose title I love, <I>The High Cost of Free Parking</I>, by Donald Shoup (I haven't read it yet), who proposes adjusting meter rates to maintain 15% available spaces at all times (or something like that), thereby making it much easier to transact business - they're working on something like this in San Francisco (not sure).<BR/><BR/>Imagine being able to drive a freeway (oops, it's no longer always free) at reasonable speed instead of wasting vast amounts of time($$$) because 10% too many people want to drive on it, alone. If the system operates for public good instead of profit, the toll would decrease with each additional passenger.<BR/><BR/>Better living through economics (and geekyness). Opposed by the paranoid right and the whining left.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10058773324081922244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-75734012839400525192008-12-13T07:49:00.000+02:002008-12-13T07:49:00.000+02:00That's right Anthony. The smart grid will allow us...That's right Anthony. <BR/>The smart grid will allow us to moderate our electricity usage with the undependable and non-dispatchable output of the plethora of future wind turbines that global warming fanatics think are the solution to our energy problems. Ranges, dryers, water heaters, HDTV flat screens, etc. can be turned off by the power company until the wind picks back up. We apologize for the inconvenience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-67542135832343160392008-12-10T06:23:00.000+02:002008-12-10T06:23:00.000+02:00Excuse me, but how does allowing an electric comp...Excuse me, but how does allowing an electric company to communicate with an oven change the world. Is this another one of those technology for technology's sake. It look's like another excuse to spend a single mom's hard earned tax dollars on a geek's fantasy. Or is it a means to force conservation by shutting down appliances when deemed expedient by an Energy Czar?Anthony Teamsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09203532330104993739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-78437352078103842882008-12-10T06:09:00.000+02:002008-12-10T06:09:00.000+02:00We will go broke first.We will go broke first.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-47143240178820548882008-12-10T04:01:00.000+02:002008-12-10T04:01:00.000+02:00Anon, Even in the most 'free market economy' ANY U...Anon, <BR/><BR/>Even in the most 'free market economy' ANY U Chicago-Austrian economist could ever dream up, where there is absolutely NO government and NO taxation, still we would all be living in a socialist society as well. It is simply a matter of your point of view-frame of reference.<BR/><BR/>It is always both, <A HREF="http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/beyond_darwin" REL="nofollow">don't kid yourself</A>.Thaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700253024420397221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-1572682014004902642008-12-10T03:49:00.000+02:002008-12-10T03:49:00.000+02:00Hell,Well, I like this blog site. There's facts,cr...Hell,<BR/><BR/>Well, I like this blog site. There's facts,creativity,and it makes me think. Thank You, Hellasious for all the time you put into your post.<BR/>....a comment to Mberenis..Grape cool aide may be good for me too, but I'm not gonna drink it just 'cause a whole group of other's say it is...I'm just one who is afraid that we are leaning more and more toward a socialistic society...this is the USA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-5193508087782670262008-12-10T02:45:00.000+02:002008-12-10T02:45:00.000+02:00Brian, I personally think they are way related. We...Brian, I personally think they are way related. We are witnessing social trust in evolution. <BR/><BR/>Much as obesity or disease (or "memes") propagate thru crowds, so too does trust propagate thru communities, even communities as large as the whole world.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.univie.ac.at/virtuallabs/Volunteering/" REL="nofollow">It is absolutely clear that specialization in an economy can ONLY happen thru cooperation. And of course this can only happen with trust</A>. <BR/><BR/>Since debt (money) is really just trust- i.e. a promise on future labor- when collective trust increases (as indeed it must in order to allow greater cooperation from greater specialization), so too does the fear of what it means to lose trust subside. <BR/><BR/>And while this is incredibly powerful economically when it works, it makes the system that much more vulnerable to total crash when someone/something ultimately betrays collective trust and 'defects'.<BR/><BR/>i.e. it's those two old friends of mine- The Prisoner's Dilemma and her multiplayer fractal cousin- The Tragedy of the commons.<BR/><BR/>Risk is always conserved in a bounded system. In a system with greater and greater cooperation, there are fewer and fewer (but larger and larger) crashes as a 'naive' society suffers much greater breakdown from defectors than a 'jaded' society does... the biologic analogy would be something like introducing a new species into a 'virgin' environment- like releasing predators on the Galapagos.<BR/> <BR/>No matter how much we try, we can't get away from that old conservation of energy thing (and believe me, it seems liberals are endlessly trying).<BR/><BR/>This is why we are seeing debt increase. This is why we are seeing less fear of economic consequences of our own making.<BR/><BR/>At least to me, they are very much relatedThaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700253024420397221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-52040928651319638532008-12-10T00:51:00.000+02:002008-12-10T00:51:00.000+02:00>Honestly Hell, other blogmasters do not allow ...>Honestly Hell, other blogmasters do not allow this.<BR/><BR/>In other situations, I could tell you to go to hell, but seems like that is what you did :)<BR/><BR/>@ Greenie<BR/><BR/>>Yet you're a goldbug investing in a single element.<BR/><BR/>Why not? There is a season for everything. Right now, it is time to protect wealth, because nutsies around the world are proposing solutions on what to do. The solutions by those nutjobs essentially boil down to one thing - take wealth from the prudent and distribute to the reckless.<BR/><BR/>Six month back, nutsies were shouting 'peak oil' at the top of their voices. As I told you and everyone in this blog, that was the best time to short oil.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, let's get some good sleep tonight. I hear tomorrow we will have a new czar announced - the auto czar. You know what came after czars, don't you? Lenin and Stalin and red/white armies.Greeniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723475560144858107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-75032463251369146022008-12-09T23:02:00.000+02:002008-12-09T23:02:00.000+02:00Charts are useful, but can be puzzling.Changes sin...Charts are useful, but can be puzzling.<BR/><BR/>Changes since the 1950s<BR/><BR/>1. Energy use: exponential<BR/>2. Water extraction: exponential<BR/>3. Pollutants emitted: exponential<BR/>4. Inorg. Fertilizer: exponential<BR/><BR/>More recent<BR/><BR/>A. 'Funny' Money: exponential<BR/>B. Debt: exponential<BR/><BR/>Coincidence, happenstance or enemy action?<BR/> <BR/>What is the difference between the first set and the second? <BR/><BR/>Sorry about the 'silly' questions Anon. But they do actually bother me a lot. This Blog is about Debt; and I have formed the opinion that there is a causal connection between Nos 1-4, and A+B above.<BR/><BR/>Refutations welcomed. <BR/><BR/>Brian P<BR/><BR/>ps: H, Its your Blog. If I am out of order - zap my entry. BPW.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-35105919939449467352008-12-09T20:16:00.000+02:002008-12-09T20:16:00.000+02:00@ Greenie"Here is my take. Wealth is converting si...@ Greenie<BR/><BR/>"Here is my take. Wealth is converting simple forms of nature into complex forms."<BR/><BR/>Yet you're a goldbug investing in a single element.<BR/><BR/>@Hell<BR/><BR/>"Please stop posting stupid questions"<BR/><BR/>Honestly Hell, other blogmasters do not allow this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-36901889368499371532008-12-09T15:55:00.000+02:002008-12-09T15:55:00.000+02:00>Can 'our' economies work without debt ...>Can 'our' economies work without debt creation. If not, then what sort is necessary?<BR/><BR/>When debt increases net wealth of the society, it is good. If you can build a chair out of raw woods, and you see other guys standing and watching you, it does not hurt to put those guys to work with you and building more chairs. Asking those other guys to work with you == debt, because when you borrow money, you are taking idle productive powers of other people.<BR/><BR/>If those other people were building a complex machine and you take them to help you build chair or worse, play bridge with you, that is bad debt. <BR/><BR/><BR/>>If we do need debt, then can the economy work without charging interest on that <BR/>That is equivalent to not paying a person for working. What kind of work do you do? Would you mind not getting paid? Please stop posting stupid questions, unless you do not understand the consequences.Greeniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723475560144858107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-57097057195565761802008-12-09T15:23:00.000+02:002008-12-09T15:23:00.000+02:00Now you tell me, what you mean by one needs to wor...Now you tell me, what you mean by one needs to worry about 'entropy' regarding alternative energy? By reading Hell's old posts, I never felt like he understood the concept of entropy well. Either that or he was intentionally distorting the facts to make a point.<BR/><BR/>Please prove me wrong. What about entropy makes 'permagrowth' wrong? What is 'permagrowth' anyway?Greeniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723475560144858107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-58034879093398487912008-12-09T15:19:00.000+02:002008-12-09T15:19:00.000+02:00> What is productivity?If you spend 4 hours bui...> What is productivity?<BR/><BR/>If you spend 4 hours building the chair and another person spends 3, we get improvement in productivity.<BR/><BR/>However, the productivity measures of US government is fallacious. When a company replaces an US worker (with pay of $73) with a Chinese worker (with pay of $5), it registers productivity gain, because the company is doing more by spending less. Huge productivity gains of last 10-15 years were mostly effects of substitution.Greeniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723475560144858107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-71448771265934563762008-12-09T15:16:00.000+02:002008-12-09T15:16:00.000+02:00> What is wealth? How is it created/destroyed?H...> What is wealth? How is it created/destroyed?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Here is my take. Wealth is converting simple forms of nature into complex forms. For example, if you take raw wood, clean it up, cut it in shape and build a chair out of it, you created wealth. You break the chair and throw it into dumpster --> net wealth of the society is destroyed.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The above is the true definition of wealth. All the monetary explanations are just attempts to put mathematical tags on things, but they are incomplete and that is the problem. For example, when a mother raises his child to be intelligent, productive member of the society, it increases wealth of the society. Why? Because the child can grow up to turn simple forms of nature into complex ones.<BR/><BR/>However, in GDP calculation, mother's role is seen as negative. So, our western society collectively takes all mothers away from children, and sends them to work and create lesser wealth.Greeniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16723475560144858107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-50838127038642875202008-12-09T04:31:00.000+02:002008-12-09T04:31:00.000+02:00"Using more debt to solve debt deleveraging is lik..."Using more debt to solve debt deleveraging is like using water to fix a leaking dam" to paraphrase Mish. Obama's plan still involves ratcheting up ‘our’ debt...so are we so desperate or frightened that we're back to embracing the 'feel good' delusional concept of 'good' debt?<BR/>I'm with all who feel that 1. conservation, 2. lifestyle changes, 3. 'ease of living' changes, and 4. re-shaping our mis-built environment are key...and # 4 can’t be done via rushed projects or these alleged, off-the-shelf infrastructure boondoggles that are ready-for-funding.<BR/>Gee, this new American 'era' of thoughtful actions seems to have lasted all of 3.5 weeks.<BR/><BR/>Oh well, the Fed’s newest $8 Trillion in obligations (March-Dec 2008 tally) plus Obama’s additional $ 1 Trillion in debt-funded projects will eventually add to the momentum of today’s debt deleveraging and maybe get us more quickly past Winston Churchill’s famous observation of us: <BR/>“You Can Always Count On America To Do The Right Thing...Only After She First Exhausts Every Other Alternative”. tick-tock tick-tock.Avl Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12298355297869341807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-11731549693993383572008-12-08T22:24:00.000+02:002008-12-08T22:24:00.000+02:00Ok, so here's the deal. Maybe you guys can answer...Ok, so here's the deal. Maybe you guys can answer a few questions for me. The owner of this blog posed a 'nasty' to me some time ago. Thanks Hel - I enjoyed digging out the answer.<BR/><BR/>1. Can 'our' economies work without debt creation. If not, then what sort is necessary?<BR/><BR/>2. If we do need debt, then can the economy work without charging interest on that debt?<BR/><BR/>3. What is wealth? How is wealth created? How is wealth destroyed?<BR/><BR/>4. What is 'productivity'? Is it essential? What is 'growth'?<BR/><BR/>Have fun. <BR/><BR/>Brian P<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>4.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-91181931605495034412008-12-08T19:07:00.000+02:002008-12-08T19:07:00.000+02:00Most of these projects are rear mirror in nature a...Most of these projects are rear mirror in nature and support a economy and lifestyle based on a ever expanding credit/debit economy that looks to be heading into reverse. While I share H's desire that something useful comes from Obama's choice's all I have is a bit of hope.lineup32https://www.blogger.com/profile/01645284557123359301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-30742306250836426222008-12-08T07:56:00.000+02:002008-12-08T07:56:00.000+02:00Re: Do I sense a sliver of hope in all the gloom t...Re: Do I sense a sliver of hope in all the gloom that is Hell? : )<BR/><BR/>Yes. <BR/><BR/>Because it is now time to move on to SOLUTIONS, since the problem and its effects have become so manifestly evident. I am not a tent revival preacher.Hellasioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564511281240682625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-54873433191770883072008-12-08T05:04:00.000+02:002008-12-08T05:04:00.000+02:00Thai:You have evidently taught Luke well, that lea...Thai:<BR/><BR/>You have evidently taught Luke well, that learning often entails coloring outside the lines.<BR/><BR/>Fractals certainly define the range of variations of a system which are a type of boundary. <BR/>Boundaries, in the sense of applicable range, also go hand-in-hand with scale as Newton gives way to Einstein in dealing with large objects and extreme velocities.Keenanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12688238140382533518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-49262051918686308922008-12-08T03:12:00.000+02:002008-12-08T03:12:00.000+02:00I think this is a great blog, and I would like to ...I think this is a great blog, and I would like to <A HREF="http://moneyloansfinance.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">Post a Comment</A> <BR/><BR/><B>There has been some recent news you might like to hear.</B>Obama is making it better for us already! There has been an increase of money availability to everyone. Due to recession there is increased funding for all types of grants. Even lenders are bending over backwards to bail you out too. Regardless of statistics, there is people getting tons of cheap money for personal use, investments,start businesses, buy homes, pay off debt, and more. <A HREF="http://moneyloansfinance.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Bailout is for YOU</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-47572619641047332662008-12-08T01:00:00.000+02:002008-12-08T01:00:00.000+02:00I agree with Betty. Why does the system have to ch...I agree with Betty. Why does the system have to change, when the real problem is with the crooks who are running the companies dishonestly and then taking vacations on the expense of the Upper class, Middle class and the poor. And, define the poor...some are really down and out and then there are others how are just plain freeloader's and have a hand out for anything they can get. Including the greedy ones who had no business buying a home that they could not afford. I don't want to pay for them because they did not get out there and work their hind ends off like most of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-44859579501065015552008-12-08T00:59:00.000+02:002008-12-08T00:59:00.000+02:00Thai, I am with you. The current credit crisis, w...Thai, I am with you. The current credit crisis, while no doubt very substantial, involves mostly paper deleveraging. <BR/><BR/>The frightening thing is the financial crisis is blurring the largest crises facing humanity in centuries: energy and the environment. Over the past 5 years, oil companies have spent hundreds of billions, yet global oil production is flat (and now declining!). <BR/><BR/>How can we be so clever, yet so stupid? We need massive conservation and investment in energy efficiency and clean energy production.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4102429195693595750.post-3227713108534251422008-12-08T00:40:00.000+02:002008-12-08T00:40:00.000+02:00Keenan, very well said. Your story reminds me of a...Keenan, very well said. <BR/><BR/>Your story reminds me of a similar personal story from several years ago- one of my boys, then in 2nd grade, had to miss recess as punishment because he wouldn't stop reading a novel he had snuck into class which the teacher had apparently asked him to stop reading on several occasions that day (though in truth it was a recurrent issue- I think that time it was a one of the Harry Potter novels). <BR/><BR/>Anyway the irony of the story was that posted throughout several walls around school were posters which said "Get Caught Reading!".<BR/><BR/>When he had the good presence to ask his teacher about the apparent contradiction (really not bad for a second grader if I do brag about Luke for a moment), he was apparently told by his teacher that the posters were really intended for "other kids". <BR/><BR/>And by the way, if you think about it, aren't fractals really all about boundaries? i.e. what are the boundaries of the system you are trying to define?<BR/><BR/>So if you similarly reread some of my comments in the past, you will see I too ask the question over and over and over again: "What are the boundaries of the system you are tying to define"?Thaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00700253024420397221noreply@blogger.com