Friday, May 15, 2009

The Real Economy In Pictures

You know, we really don't need a ream of statistics and a cadre of expensive analysts to understand the real economy. Here are a few charts; they are enough.
  • First and foremost, Unemployment. Literally, off the charts.
Continued Claims for Unemployment Benefits
  • Secondly, Real Earned Income. Average real weekly wages for jobs in the private sector are 16% lower than in 1972. Nixon was President, there was a draft for the military and people drove muscle cars.
Average Real Weekly Wages (1982 dollars) Chart: BLS

1972 Ford Gran Torino
  • Third, Household Debt as a percentage of disposable income. It took 40 years to rise from 60% to 100%; and then a mere five years to soar to 135% (a.k.a. Sudden Debt).
Data: FRB Z1
  • Conclusion: Though it has just blown up in our hands, this crisis was a long time in the making and won't go away in a few quarters.
Restoring balance to the economy will take a lot more than bailing out the financial system. It will require a Great Reset of society, a rebalancing of our values and attitudes on consumerism, assets, incomes, resource utilization and climate change.

75 comments:

marcus said...

I like that you are pounding this nail Hell:

"Restoring balance to the economy will take a lot more than bailing out the financial system. It will require a Great Reset of society, to rebalance values and attitudes on consumerism, assets, incomes, resource utilization and climate change."

Its a race against time, and there are indications we will fritter away that precious commodity.

Political corruption is hard to guage but one metric is the growth of K Street in Washington--nearly geometric. Propaganda has now developed to where the GOP has its own major network pipeline. The Executive branch is defending torture and the justice department is not enforcing employment verification laws.

All of the above are entrenched moneyed and political interests that will endure.

Joe said...

"All of the above are entrenched moneyed and political interests that will endure."

Yeah, right up to the end of the USD and Amerika as we know it.

I believe the USD will meet its demise, this year.

Joe M.

Camabron said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Camabron said...

Amen to the last lines in this post! It should be the new religion.

But What do I Know? said...

Great post as is the norm--my only quibble is to ask if the continued claims number is higher in this decession because benefits have been extended. . . I vaguely remember from the seventies and eighties that the idea of extending unemployment benefits was always raised during recessions, but my impression was that it happened only sporadically, whereas this time it is more widespread.

Can you shed any light on this?

neilt said...

I don't understand why employment figures are presented in absolute numbers since the number of people in the U.S. has increased dramatically over the time period of the graph. This simply overstates the impact of unemployment. That is not to say that I disagree with the conclusion I do not. But to assume that because the peak is at the highest point in absolute terms that the impact from unemployment is at the highest peak is not realistic.

Debra said...

This crisis has been a lot longer in the making than you think, Hell.
I'd be interested in seeing the shifts in employment starting at, like, say, the beginning of the industrial revolution.
I have probably already stated this, but I'll say it again : you need to come to Lyon(s) and take a look at the Musée du Tissu. One room, with the silk hangings and tapestries BEFORE the onset of the Jacquard loom, and the next, with them AFTER.
It's rather breathtaking. Automisation is one of the sources of anonymous, mass-produced items that are BORING and all look the same.
And... as it turns out, the longer we continue to mass produce anonymous objects that all look the same in a taylorized manner, the MORE we run the risk of becoming OURSELVES mass produced anonymous objects that all look the same and THINK in a taylorized manner.
This is a very painful realization for most of us here, I imagine, but one that we are going to have to face up to.
Along with the fact that abstraction about things like "unemployment" when nothing but full employment at meaningful work will do the trick, is going to have to bite the dust before we can start solving these problems too.

yoyomo said...

"...will take a lot more than bailing out the financial system. It will require..."

It will require slashing imperial wars, so in that vein and along the lines of comments on the prior thread, an overly long article for anyone interested but here are a couple of the money quotes regarding what drives some aspects of foreign boondoggles:

"The neocons are sometimes described as an intellectual movement influenced by University of Chicago philosopher Leo Strauss as well as (in a curious way) Trotskyism, the principle proponents of which are almost entirely secular Jews and passionate Zionists. They argue that the U.S. should use its military power to bring “democracy” to the world and so many see them as neo-Wilsonians (with all the shoddy cynicism the originals represented). But Strauss, as leading authority on his thought Shadia Drury points out, argues that deception is the norm in political life, that the big lie is necessary to get the masses to embrace wise policy. (Thus the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq really have nothing to do with “democracy” but with unspoken geopolitical objectives.)"

"Since then, many have come to think that in their desire to reconfigure Southwest Asia in what they suppose to be the interests of Israel, the neo-cons are (1) prepared to lie through their teeth, and (2) threaten to severely jeopardize U.S. security."

neilt said...

"Automisation is one of the sources of anonymous, mass-produced items that are BORING and all look the same."

Boy, you can say that again. I used to travel all over the world, when I started it was fun to go to some small market and get unique things to bring home. Now the same items for sale in some small forgotten shop are available right here in Chicago and they are all the same.

Furthermore, under the guise of merchandizing, all stores here in the states carry just about the same thing. Uniqueness is gone.

But we cannot live without either. Mass production has made better goods available to more people. We just have to find a way to keep the uniqueness of speciality products that cost more to produce.

I guess there may be value from the wealthy after all. Hmmmmm.

Anonymous said...

@ Yoyomo

I tend to agree with you but would not blame Jews as a group or worry excessively about all of the orthodox religious peculiarities you have managed to dig up. I am sure you would find such peculiarities among Christian sects - mormons come to mind, fundamentalist muslims or Hindus. Israeli geo-political expansion on the other hand, is something to be concerned about and something we want to address. Until recently there was significant and courageous opposition within Israel itself to expansion and war. So much are these policies not the province of one particular group or religion that the ultra Orthodox in Israel do not believe or support the Israeli state.

As for AIPAC and people like Strauss and Chicago I blame us as much for letting these people have so much power- - how much non-Jewish support was there for the neo-cons? It is certainly understandable for Jews to support Israel and their interests as a group through associations like AIPAC. it is our spineless politicians that have acceeded to some of their more foolish and grandiose ideas out of pure fecklessness.

On the other hand Jews have and do contribute much. Without Noam Chomsky - - whom I believe you once mentioned on sports and education or Amy Goodman - - Democracy Now, there would hardly be a sensible dialog on anything in the public domain in this country.

Focus your anger on the problem not on the group or 2000 year old religious non-sense which most people, Jews included, ignore.

SS

Jason said...

The evalgelical-Republican desire for the Rapture helped the neocon promotion of Israel as well.

Cottonbloggin said...

@ SS

Thai asked for some help with socialism a post or two ago, and (despite everyone posting like maniacs, and leaving me behind) I'm here to add my two cents there.

So first, no one living today has ever seen or experienced a Socialist state.

The Soviet Union was (instead) a fascist police state which used socialist rhetoric and socialist propaganda in order to make the bitter pill of political/economic/social oppression a bit easier to swallow.

True socialism is when the people own the means of production, as opposed to the state or giant corporations owning it. So when and where do/did the people own the means of production?

My favorite example (from before SS's time, which is why i might sound repetitive) would be the Iroquois Confederacy.

The members of the confederacy (both men and women) "owned" the means of production, since all land and tools were held in common, and everyone shared the bounty equally.

Now, you might ask about the freeloaders, since hat's the commonest argument against socialism.

But, there were no freeloaders in the IC. Because there was no private property (other than wampum beads, memories and stories). And because of that the community didn't have to compete to keep up with the "Joneses" (on a material level anyway). Instead individuals competed against other individuals for reasons of pride. and the name of the game was--

--which individual's best at promoting the greater good.

And besides, if the people around you saw you shirking your responsibilities and or NOT being a productive member of society, then you would LOSE all benefits of that society. You were kicked out and forced to walk (in shame) away.

bankers? fatties? Pay attention and beware!

...

trouble is, this successful, WORKING socialist model (400+ years until whitey eradicated them) can't be enacted today because our brains aren't pre-programmed (with socio-cultural propaganda) to work within such a system. We are, instead, PROGRAMMED to LIKE capitalism and the "benefits" it brings us.

on a scientific tangent-- (it is my opinion that) our DNA organized the original (blank slate) placement of our neurons, and the base axon connections linking said neurons. Great. But axon connections are malleable over time. It is possible (based on lived experience and decision-making) to take what was specified by the DNA as a neuronal donkey path connection, and turn it into a superhighway... if we so desire.

or, in other words, it is possible for us to manipulate our mental perception of the world merely by choosing to do so, and working hard (over time) to see it thru and re-wire ourselves.

and that brings us back to Neo's Quantum Casino, Schrodingers cat and quantum mechanical perception... it's all stochastically self similar on varying manifolds.

yoyomo said...

"...2000 year old religious non-sense which most people, Jews included, ignore."

You are totally oblivious to what is going on, that non-sense is the basis and justification for zionism, neo-conservatism and Israeli belligerence; they feel entitled to exceptional privileges based on that non-sense. Without that ideology of superiority, there could be no justification of the double standards applied.

WRT the ultra-orthodox, they are split. The Satmars favor dismantling Israel but the Chabad/Lubavitchers support the existence of Israel even if they don't recognize it as a Jewish state and they support the expulsion (or killing if need be) of the non-Jews from it in anticipation of the first coming of the Messiah when they will then proclaim it to be fully kosher.

Even the Satmar, who don't support Israel, are hostile to the Palestinians somehow. If you bothered to look at the YouTube link I left you a couple of days ago; those Jews are a sub-sect of the Satmar called Naturi Karta who advocate friendly relations with the Palestinians but they are on the Satmar shit-list for being too friendly with the Arabs. Here is another short video (2min) on the Naturi Karta.

BTW, do you have a link to that NYT article you referred to last week, or at least its title so it can be googled.

yoyomo said...

"On the other hand Jews have and do contribute much."

That is an entirely separate group of Jews who don't subscribe to the 2,000 year old non-sense (or its modern secular progeny, zionism & neo-conservatism) and many of these Jews are as worked up (or more) about it as I am but they get their throats metaphorically slashed by the Jewish/Israel lobby. Look at what happened to Norman Finkelstein, Stanley Cohen, Adam Shapiro just to name a few.

"I am sure you would find such peculiarities among..."

Can you cite examples; since the end of apartheid in SA I don't know of any other country that enshrines in its laws the official disenfranchisement of its citizens or the confiscation of the property and displacement of the people under its occupation. I guess you could say that the US is guilty of the same crimes in Iraq but almost everybody recognizes that as illegal.

Debra said...

The Jewish concept of "exception" i.e., of being the "chosen" people is an extremely complicated and ambivalent one, yoyo...
Depending on which side of the bed you woke up in the morning you can read it either/both ways : exception gives extraordinary PRIVILEGES to the Jewish people WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, exacting enormous responsibilites from them : the responsibility of giving moral, spiritual guidance for example. The responsibility of being an example.
The concept of exception is an ideological link between the Jewish AND THE AMERICAN STATE, because, when you think about it, that idea of exception is oh so very AMERICAN, isn't it, now ?
But the funny thing about human beings is that most of the time, they decide WHAT they believe, then they go looking in the melting pot of ideologies to justify their beliefs. Even the most orthodox of them...
And our obsession with the freeloader issue is the translation of our own personal ENVY and sense of ENTITLEMENT faced with what they represent.
Pray tell, just WHY is a freeloader such a problem IF YOU are working, getting a sense of personal worth and joy from what you're doing, and benefitting from it ? (On the other hand, obviously if you're not, then that is a big problem, but we COULD go into WHAT you're doing/not doing to address THIS issue on an individual level, too...)
Why have your eyes so deliberately and obsessively trained on your neighbor, folks ? WHAT COULD HE HAVE/BE THAT YOU HAVEN'T/AREN'T ?
Just another way of "keeping up with the Joneses, right" ?
And he could be missing out COMPLETELY, in the sense that he is DOING nothing to ENRICH HIMSELF in the long run.
Why don't you have enough FAITH in what YOU'RE doing to be able to IGNORE him ? (And when you get to the point where you can reach out your hand to him in all humility and the desire to open his eyes to what he could do to change, then you will be really Christlike... (without the Crucifixion, thank God...)

yoyomo said...

Cotton,
Your vision of socialism (tribal) is beautiful but it is based on small numbers. When everybody knows everybody else it is possible to have the harmonious fraternal society you describe. Modern society is too mobile and anonymous for the level of shared sacrifice tribal living requires but it is beautiful in a nostalgic way.

Who knows, when population levels have crashed and mobility has become unattainable for all but the richest, we may go back to that way of living but the pain to get there is pretty depressing to imagine.

Debra,
That is the beautiful part of zionism, all the privileges of being the chosen people but none of the burdens. It is nothing more than a secular Jewish version of the Nazi master race theory and it predated it by 40 years.

As for US exceptionalism, pray tell where does that come from? Judaeo-Christian doctrine is a continuation of being god's chosen and having dominion over all other things and people.

yoyomo said...

Anyone in the mood for a farcical laugh might want to take a look at this short article. It's not necessary to read it all to get its benefits.

Thai said...

Thanks Cotton, I owe you one.

... I really do have a hard time seeing things the way many others on this blog see them so I appreciate translating into a language others appreciate.


For (at least to me), your most significant statement was:

"You were kicked out and forced to walk (in shame) away."


In the days of the Iroquois, being kicked out of the collective mean death/oblivion, not just a friendly "walk in the park".

To me, your statement tells me the outcome is the same either way and I find it therefore quite hard to get excited between two structures that will be exactly the same in the end (you are still trapped in the boundaries that create convergent evolution, e.g. birds and bats both have wings yet come from different lineages).

To me, the only way socialism and capitalism look different is just from an individual's point of view- like looking at a sphere from the north vs. looking at it from the south.

But it is still a sphere either way or as Shakespeare once said "A rose by any other name would still small as sweet", yet research scientists studying the human mind have found that actually "no", at least to humans, a rose by a different name does not smell as sweet. (Deb, I think you will like this one a lot)


Some of the readers of this blog say such "socialist ideas" are beautiful, but only work in small tribal communities.

Yet those same bloggers rail against Rockefeller elites (their video), when these elites have plans to create a similar "small global community" and weed out bad actors that destroy cooperation by implanting chips in us all to control us/track our behaviors.

They are opposed to ANY incursion on personal liberties (really the ones they disagree with), yet they like it when small group, totally free of government do this?

I am sure you know the Iroquois nation was quite large. As a single individual, on average, your individual say in the activities and acts and norms and tolerance of the group was quite small.

Some bloggers are willing to let the health care system engage in unspeakably draconian behaviors (that in truth I have VERY strong misgivings on) IF they are done under the mantra of "socialized health care", yet refuses to let the free market do exactly the same thing.

YET to top it all off, the current socialist entities we have in America are some of the entities they least trust (FDA, The Fed, etc...) because they sees how elites have over run these entities.

AND while none of us have lived in a socialized system (I think Greenie has), all of us have read the about how these were overrun by their own elites.

It is as if we refuse to admit in the innate natures of (wo)man.

We have clearly seen the free market is flawed, so as a result we say we will trust our own brain/observations.

Yet it has been equally shown our human minds are just as flawed.

Many readers of this blog refuse to see all life on this planet as one form of energy using low entropy energy/structures to create even lower entropy structures (with a total increase in entropy in the process).

And yet Hell has the book right there on his recommended reading list every day right in front of us (kind of reminds me of his posting on quantum casino).

You are absolutely correct: "and that brings us back to Neo's Quantum Casino, Schrodinger's cat and quantum mechanical perception... it's all stochastically self similar on varying manifolds."

Most people refuse to take the red pill (and with good reason I might add).

Indeed, they don't even see it is right in front of them.

Thai said...

"A rose by any other name does not smell as sweet".

I think it is going to be my new mantra

Cottonbloggin said...

@ Yoyomo,

"Your vision of socialism (tribal) is beautiful but it is based on small numbers."

I don't think it has to work that way. And I don't think it DID work that way. Ok, so linguistically, cherokee is part of the Iroquioian language group. Odd that (before removal) they were located in north carolina/ georgia? That's one hell of a sphere of influence.

Turns out that US Route 219 is the Seneca Trail of the Great Indian (trade and) Warpath. (by the way, I've ridden it from start to finish, and it is UNMARKED. How's that for American history?). Anyway, point is, their social organization WASN"T just based on small numbers and tribal organization. It was (at least from their perspective) approaching... "global".

Oh to know what would have been had the EUROPEANS been more susceptible to native american diseases than vice versa?

So, Thai will appreciate me saying this, but the Iroquois confederacy was a fractally generated society, and as such, had the ability to grow as large as necessary...

the confederacy itself had no power. It wasn't top down as we've seen in all modern "socialist" (and capitalist) organizations. Instead, power was generated from the bottom up.. thru a vote in a direct democracy.

So, Yoyomo, it just SEEMS small and tribal from today's perspective, because we're only just beginning to see the power of a society run bottom up.

Any social networking site is based on socialist values. So is open source code. These are the modern versions. And I doubt anyone would say their scope or reach is small and tribal...

OkieLawyer said...

Yoyomo:

Hmm. I was just in Colorado Springs yesterday. I knew that James Dobson's church / ministry was there, but fortunately I only got drenched by the waterfalls at Seven Falls. (I am vacationing and sightseeing in the area.)

I guess some Baptist churches are under some pressure to increase church membership rolls by baptizing as many people as possible. That ought to be an indication that their active membership rolls are going down.

I think it is an indication that fundamentalist Christianity is not such a hot item anymore.

Now what exactly was the point of the article?

OkieLawyer said...

(And now back to our regularly scheduled program.)

I think it is interesting that even with all of the savings that has taken place in the last year with family households repairing their balance sheets and all of the debt deflation, that household debt is still 130% of disposable income.

John L. Feier said...

At what point will people finally stop paying on their debt? The Titanic is sinking. We're headed for a world where a credit rating is irrelevant. Don't people see this? Think of all those things that you think you need credit for--a house, a car, a college education and luxury items at the shopping mall and ask yourself, is there any other way that you can get these items without credit?

A house could easily be replaced by a rented apartment or a mobile home that you could save money for. They could say that people who don't pay their bills on time would find it hard to find an apartment. So, we're just going to have people who have money to pay for rent and are working just live out on the street because they didn't pay their light bill five years ago? Right.

What's wrong with moving closer to work, walking, a bicycle or public transportation?

I happen to think that I shouldn't have to pay for a college education. I think that should be paid for with tax dollars.

And do you REALLY need to buy luxury items at the shopping mall?

So you see....we don't need credit to survive. All of this credit was introduced into the economy as a means to help facilitate globalization. The long credit-fueled consumer binge in the United States has helped to give billions of jobs to third world countries, but it has also perpetuated the stagnant wages that has existed in the American economy since the 1970's. We now have people in Walmart making low wages helping to sell items that are made by people...making low wages. You only get what you give. This is the future.

So consumers should stop worrying about the fine china. The Titanic is sinking and it's only a matter of time before the rumors are confirmed. Consumers should stop trying to save their credit record because we're headed for a world where a credit rating is irrelevant.

Thai said...

Well said Cotton

Thai said...

"I happen to think that I shouldn't have to pay for a college education. I think that should be paid for with tax dollars."

How wonderful, just what this world is in such short supply of, another person who loves spending someone else's money.

Thai said...

Welcome back Okie!

You were missed.

Anonymous said...

@ yoyomo,

I basically agree entirely but find you saying that a certain type of Judaeism and its alliance with the power of the Israeli state are the problem not Jews per say. Finkelstein, Chomsky, Goodman, Oz and many others are heros to me I would find it difficult to find courageous gentiles of their caliber here. What we have let happen to them and the power of AIPAC is our doing as I said not entirely theirs.

SS

yoyomo said...

Oh cheer up Thai, you're starting to sound morose.

Yours truly,
Some of the readers...

Never mind, seems Okie picked your spirits up.

marcus said...

Thai: "How wonderful, just what this world is in such short supply of, another person who loves spending someone else's money."

Faulty thinking, tax revenue's are "We the People's" money not "someone else's"

Thai said...

Common Marcus, give me a little credit, I do understand this. You (again?) are missing my point.

Anonymous said...

@ Yoyomo

"I am sure you would find such peculiarities among..."

Can you cite examples; - I cited the Mormons, will add the Taliban, Wahabi, the Spanish Inquisition etc.

We basically agree though Yoyomo except that your definition of Zionism seems to have a greater reach and include more people than mine and I would argue more against its reach as embodied in the state than its philosophy per say. Many philosophies come and go and one time adherents can see the error of their ways.

You never did address my objection to our complicity in all this, important since I worry more about myself than the Jews. Israel would hardly exist and certainly could not effect its expansionist policies without us. One can not really blame the jews for that.

Good weekend!

SS

Anonymous said...

@ All

I am so really glad to see this comment section back to its old excellence and courteous tone! Even Debra after several weeks of wandering in the wilderness (a feminine one at that) is back to her old brilliance, what an excellent post on Judaism.

Have a nice weekend all -

SS

Anonymous said...

@ previous comment

Add Opus Dei to my previous list of religious influences on the state; said to be a major factor in Franquist Spain, still around and influential in the U.S. and Europe today.

SS

marcus said...

Sorry thai, credit is not being extended for past behavior. You again try to slide past the issue or "point".

Tax revenue is not "someone else's money" (which really sounds like a 1999 George W Bush ad) it is our money to be spent on the "general welfare".

For example, IMHO 100,000 people going to college is more important than invading non-threatening countries.

You mis-spoke, no big deal, I even did it once.

Thai said...

Thank you for your understanding

Anonymous said...

One more post before saying good night:

@ Cotton

Brilliant contribution on the Iroquois! Some how that needs to be widely disseminated and learned.

SS

yoyomo said...

SS,
I asked for examples of countries who enshrine in law the exclusion of some of their citizens. The closest example you gave was the Taliban when they ruled Afghanistan but they weren't recognized by any western country because they weren't considered to have legitimacy but the apartheid laws of Israel are noooo problem, all hunky dory.

Western complicity is of course obvious and the politicians who vote for unjust and illegal policies are guilty of their crimes but you seem to be minimizing the culpability of the zionist Jews who bribe or intimidate (remember Cynthia McKinney* anyone?) them into doing so and the Jewish dominated media that shapes public opinion in favor of such counterproductive (to the US at least and the vast majority of its citizens) policies.

That is like focusing exclusively on the cop who accepts a bribe to look the other way and forgetting totally about the drug dealer who is peddling the drugs; they're both guilty and you can bet that the US is (and will continue) paying a very high price for its complicity. That price will only get higher as the US gets weaker (relatively, at least) and poorer and in the end Israel will cease to exist in its current form because the west will no longer be willing to underwrite it.

*The list is really too long and I can't remember all the congresspeople who have been given the boot for opposing Israeli criminality

Debra,
Freeloading; nobody likes to work a lot harder than they have to while someone else gets most of the benefit. That is why banks and those who have traditionally owned and operated them have been resented through the ages.

yoyomo said...

Dink,
The first of these two short items might interest you. Also the comment by Ashvini (#2) is kind of scary.

yoyomo said...

Hel, I can't figure out the motive behind this very short article on the IMF. Can you see any logic in what they're doing? My conspiratorial nature suspects a hidden agenda but I can't think what it might be.

Anonymous said...

@ Yoyomo,

I consider myself one of the cops, in your analogy, so I am trying to clean up the cops. Actually how great a crime is something if it is tacitly accepted by the legal community?

I do applaud you for trying to bring up the problem in frank terms. That in and of itself is quite courageous in this environment.

Once again, however, Christians will argue vociferously that you are a sinner and can not be saved unless you believe in Christ. Wahabis consider women and non-Muslims as lesser citizens without certain rights, Iranian shites persecute Bahais, Christians and Jews, the Hindu led government of Gujarat is said to have encouraged the pogrom of thousands of Moslems. Opus Dei would certainly like to rule the world to their own ends and power and certainly encouraged the criminalizing of socialists when allied to power in Spain. Religious fanaticism goes a pair with religion in spite often times of the excellent humanitarian teachings of the founders.

Focus on state action and power you are on much solider ground; it is this power aided by the U.S. which allows for the flourishing of the philosophy not the other way around. Simply like Aryan supremacy still exists but since not abated by any state power remains quite marginal. Can't disagree, however, that none of these exclusive philosophies are particularly helpful to the human condition.

SS

yoyomo said...

State action is to a large extent determined by the lobbying and patronage of influential members of society. In the case of Jews, the zionist ones seem to have all the power while the non-zionist ones are almost completely shut out in the media and totally shut out in politics. You can't separate the state/politicians from its/their elite power base.

Dink,
You had mentioned how affected you were by Slumdog Millionaire, this sad postscript only adds to the tragedy.

marcus said...

Thai, You are welcome! I'm here for you.

marcus said...

yoyomo, I mostly agree with your assessment regarding the influence of Zionists (whether they be considered religious radicals, tribalists, whatever) on the American political system.

Again the wisdom of the founders emphasis of separation of church and State.

What are the solutions to this problem? A counterbalancing lobby (that excludes the Hitler youth movement and Grand Dragon devotees), a grass roots movement educating the voters about the effects of this influence?

Anonymous said...

@ Marcus

"What are the solutions to this problem? "

That's where I am but I must say I have no ready remedy. I was so appalled at the invasion of Jordan by Israel a few years back that it made me sick and depressed. U.S. media no problem. Gaza I guess I'm used to it. The one thing I would add and I don't mean to be necessarily insulting to Yoyomo but I think he admires Jews even more than I. I don't see how six million worldwide can force several hundred thousand gentiles of European extraction and other nations, countless in number, to do their will for long even if they were all what Yoyomo calls Zionists which they are not. I have a slightly higher opinion of us, unfortunately only slightly, however.

Read Nietzche on the Jews by the way, nothing but praise contrary to what the National Socialists and Nietsche's sister made him out to say after his death.

SS

SS said...

@ Yoyomo

Regarding superiority complexes I am waiting for Thai and Debra to tell us that we can not actually be saved because we haven't embraced Christ but that they love us nonetheless. This stuff is widespread and most people repeat it because they were taught so by the community around them but don't base their actions on it.

SS

P.S. Thai don't get mad please!

yoyomo said...

The solution is simple, don't be intimidated into silence; Who Knows Better Must Say So, that is the title of a book by Rabbi Elmer Berger written in the 50's about zionist terrorism against Jews living in Iraq to panic them into fleeing to Israel because they weren't making the journey of their own volition so they had to be motivated with a few synagogue bombings.As long as people who know better aren't afraid to say so (even if it's politically incorrect) then small lobbies won't be able to control politicians against the interests of the majority.

marcus said...

SS,

The ironic thing is to talk about "admiration" of groups when one of the purposes of the Republic is to minimize the power of the group, through laws and widespread representation, whether the group be bankers, religious, or tribal. The interest of the minor group is almost always at odds with the Republic.

What Jefferson (I believe) feared the most is now true; moneyed interests now control the State--to a larger degree then ever before(refer to meteoric growth of "K Street" in Washington for evidence). Corporations are more interested in the short-term bottom line, just as AIPAC is more interested in the welfare of a foreign power rather than the welfare of the People.

We wandered far off the Reservation (State organized about laws) and got waylaid. We see this in action now: A creeping corporate fascism, with a President continuing many of the unlawful and legally corrosive practices of what could be argued the most inept and outlaw eight year Presidency.

Its one thing to have massive corruption and lawbreaking at the highest level of government--we come back from that. What is truly disturbing is the lack of coverage or analysis in major media and objection in the (supposedly) opposition party.

yoyomo said...

Marcus,
This is a shorter link on the same subject but it should get a good head of steam out of Thai.

Anonymous said...

@ Yoyomo

Took a look at the link and found this"

"I won't dwell on September 11, which I think was perpetrated by the CIA and Mossad. I'd rather focus on the irony that Naeim Giladi almost died for a cause he later repudiated."

Unfortunately when you post non-sense like this you do yourself a great dis-service wandering off into 2000 year old irrational, paranoiac.

SS

Thai said...

@Deb re: "Wow... I hope that you guys realize WHY WW2 was fought, and WHY nothing was solved at the end of it..."

Amen


@SS, you can never prove to a committed believer that Angels don't exist.

@Marcus, I am glad you are!

For I do have a cooment and a question.

Comment first re: "one of the purposes of the Republic is to minimize the power of the group, through laws and widespread representation, whether the group be bankers, religious, or tribal. The interest of the minor group is almost always at odds with the Republic."

Are you sure you don't see fractals?

For I must add an "amen" (In fact a version of this is what I have always been saying).

And if you look at it as Cotton and I do, e.g. a fractal world of "VARYING MANIFOLD" you might also see a world superstructure emerging to control the substructures (nations) of this planet (which in turn as you remind us, control their own people, etc...).

Whether this superstructure will become the corporate fascist United State or whether it will be some other entity I cannot say but I am quite sure it will emerge. And If nuclear weapons are ever used (by Israeli's or Arabs or anyone else) again on this planet, its emergence will only accelerate imo.

Question second: "What is the real economy?" (notice how I like to stay focus on Hells' original topic)


We both know there is a big difference between money and the "real economy".

For while I freely admit that I may be misreading your statement, what I do read suggests you have missed SS's point to Yoyomo re:

"focusing exclusively on the cop who accepts a bribe... and forgetting totally about the drug dealer who is peddling the drugs"

Which, fwiw, is the same point I have ALWAYS been trying to make when I say 2 dimensional view of the world vs. 3 dimensional view of the world...

AND I really do realize an economy is actually "n" dimensional (on multiple manifolds ;-) ).

So again, to use your public education analogy, you can spend the money on 100,000 people going to college in 4 years, vs. spending it on a war (I completely agree).


BUT...

You can also spend the same money educating 200,000 people IF they do it in 2 years, etc... IF the students work a little harder, less fraternity parties, etc...

These issues are all "non-linear" as they are all related to each other.

For someone who's priority is organic farming, they might ask that everyone finish college a little sooner so they too can have a little bit of the money for their organic farming projects, etc...

... AND I will remind you that military spending, even if we include off book dishonest Republican accounting, is still low from a historical % of GDP.


And @SS (again)- re: "I am waiting for Thai and Debra to tell us that we can not actually be saved because we haven't embraced Christ but that they love us nonetheless."

LOL!!! ;-)

I guess I really am saying this to Marcus and Yoyomo so... (I hate to admit it)

Touche

Regards

Thai said...

Marcus and Yoyomo, score one more point for those elites.

Looks like those bankers keep figuring out ways to keep that military funding going.

And that day Yo so fears, when we all just get chips implanted at birth, seems to be getting closer by the moment.

Hey, my tooth isn't buzzing.

Anonymous said...

"....We have clearly seen the free market is flawed, so as a result we say we will trust our own brain/observations....."

Why.....? Because the invisible hand giveth and then taketh it away....? Is there a rule that I'm not aware of that states that the invisible hand is only suppose to give.....?

Are all of out free market transitions supposed to lead us collectively to a higher standard of living as defined by our cultural Jewish/Christian bias of consumption? Our appetites have indeed become disproportionate to availability. Our dominion is truly void of subject.

Best regards,

Econolicious

marcus said...

Alright, I get it, yer into freakin fractals Thai. Its good to have a cosmic 93 million mile view. Hey string theory is my cult and believe there are only 13 dimensions--enough of this "n" dimensional heresy!

Glad you brought up efficiency (education wise in your two posts) now we're down closer to where the rubber meets the road.

A simple analogy: You have a serial rapist in the neighborhood, what do you do? Lock him up. Why? Not to fulfill some base desire for retribution but to prevent he and others from similar behavior.

You have serial fraudsters in the financial system and government, what do you do? Let them continue. Why? Because the system is corrupted.

Nothing wrong with the principles of the system, it can handle the problem.

SO, instead of dreaming about a future band of Fractalvania that will deliver us from this corruption, the better tactic is to be an active voice against the corruption, within the system. Why? Because if you don't you'll end up with people in desperate situations and that is dangerous--even for "elites".

Debra and WWII: nothing solved? I beg to differ The end of world wars as we recently know them has vanished--now we're playing with real fire.

Implanted chips? IMHO the real futurama shocker will be cloning of the "super race.".

Thai said...

@Econolicious,

No entitlement whatsoever if that is your interpretation. In fact, I think we are saying the same thing and you just came in late (unless you I misunderstand you).

Also best regards. ;-)


Marcus- I will repeat this again for the n-millionth time so their is no misunderstanding, "there are some bad people in this world and some of them need to be stopped".

It is true that it took me a little while to recognize how bad some of these bankers really were when I first came on this site (truly, I didn't understand it for a while), but I do now.

You go after them. I will be there right behind you.

As for any "super race", my particular evolutionary strategy is counting on them doing it. ;-)

For make no mistake, I will take those master race clones on ANY day of the week.

They will still have to cooperate with different types of information processors in their war for supremacy or they will lose, super-race or no super race.

Regards

;-)

marcus said...

Thai, "You go after them. I will be there right behind you."

Conscientious objection? Sorry Mr Christian we need "all hands on deck"

Thai said...

Please give me a list of "true believer" action items to consider?

In the mean time, I am looking for about 20 EM physicians for rural hospitals that I staff.

Do you know how to get EM physicians to move from NYC and Boston (and leave their families), and move to rural America?

The market mechanism of "price" doesn't work since the government controls pricing/salaries.

I am quite confident that rural America needs them more than NYC, Boston and Miami does and honestly I truly am worried about hospital error issues as you rightfully reminded all the rest of us.

Any way you can help me with this little battle while I help the "all hands on deck issue with the bankers?".

It is one of life and death, not that anyone really seems to care.

Best Regards

marcus said...

Thai:

"Do you know how to get EM physicians to move from NYC and Boston (and leave their families), and move to rural America?"

"The market mechanism of "price" doesn't work since the government controls pricing/salaries."

The "government controls pricing/salaries" of physicians? What country are you living in?

The average salary of physicians with more than 3 years experience in the US is about $300,000 (http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm).

Solution: Make the medical profession a community service occupation similar to politicians, firemen, and social workers. Cut the salaries to G13 scale and offer bonuses to people to work in rural areas. You also reap the benefit of having people join the profession more for dedication and weed out the greedy and status seekers. And of course you lower the cost of health care.

Debra said...

Sigh...
Yoyo and Thai, my comments about Zionism and the fact that our international institutions arose out of the debacle of WW2, and the perceived necessity of propitiating the Jewish people for actions resulting in their mass murder, as, not people, but mere incarnations of the Jewish faith, have DISAPPEARED.
I try not to get too paranoid these days...
I will repeat that western civilization is extremely responsible for what's going on in the U.S., that this "show" is one that we have orchestrated for OUR benefit, in a world split that creates all GOOD victims at the same time it creates all BAD torturers...
This simplistic mind set does no one any good.
The tragedy of the Middle East continues, as we attempt to extricate ourselves from monotheistic ideology. Our long maintained idealization of the Jews as pure victims is fissuring rapidly, and we will soon be off hunting NEW objects to idolize/idealize in this little game of who's the BEST victim.
SS, I don't try to convert ANYONE to Christianity.
But I DO try to practice what Jesus preached...
Cotton, that was an excellent comment about the Iriquoi nation. Now I know why I am so interested in Native American societies.
God save me from idealization, though...
Cheers.

yoyomo said...

Debra,
zionism has nothing with propitiating Jewish victims of WW2, it had started by the 1880's in reaction to European countries abolishing the laws discriminating against Jews and forcing them to live in ghettos. As Jews began to gain acceptance in the wider community, and some began to assimilate, the rabbis began to lose the tight control they traditionally exercised over their congregations. Their rabbinic courts no longer had mandatory jurisdiction over their congregants and any Jew who wanted to leave the community and become a member of the wider society could without converting to Christianity (previously, the only way out for a Jew).

Their response to this loss of control was to establish a movement to resurrect a Jewish homeland where they would be able to exercise the sovereignty they once had in their ghettos. The first zionist settlers began arriving in the 1880's and the first world zionist convention was held in 1895 or thereabouts.

The Jews of the ME were not that interested in zionism because all communities in ME countries (Muslim, Christian, Jewish) were allowed to maintain their religious court systems and they felt no need to emigrate to a Jewish homeland to maintain the integrity of their communities. I know it's a long article but, as you have time, please read Naeim Giladi's story or his Wikipedia entry.

Hellasious said...

Dear All,

Please try to stay on topic.

Best,
H.

yoyomo said...

Now that I've addressed Hel's concerns I can get back to you my little buttercup:

"@SS, you can never prove to a committed believer that Angels don't exist."

OK Little Miss Smarty Pants,
explain to me just how the hijackers knew to carry out their plan on the one day that NORAD was having a stand-down drill and their would be no interception of hijacked planes. Explain why the president would even be traveling by air on that very same day when the country's air defenses were at a lowered state and conveniently taking the military fighter jet contingent that accompanies Air Force One to Florida where they were too far away to respond to the Pentagon attack. Two very improbable coincidences just by happenstance occurring at the same time and the hijackers knew about this without someone on the inside feeding them the info.

And the little matter of the Israeli agents fronting as art students and as furniture movers arrested videoing the collapse of the WTC. Here are a very few of the thousands of links on the matter:
Fox News AFox News BArt StudentsHaaretz on 9/11 early warningHaaretz on arrested moversIf all this info conforms in your mind to the official conspiracy theory of 9/11, then maybe you're looking at it the same way you admitted to looking at the bankers for far too long (your words sweetie).

yoyomo said...

Those links were in tabular form but blogger mashed them all in to one lump but they still work.

Debra said...

Lol, Hell, don't you see that we are weaving a complex symphony around your original posts ?
Stream of consciousness, and free association in an attempt to explode rationality and reasoning.
And in the process, we even manage to stay on topic from time to time...
It's not like an essay, granted.
But, since I believe that anarchy is viable, I assume.
Cheers...

Thai said...

This is the first time you have asked Hell.

Message heard loud and clear.

Will do

yoyomo said...

"Message heard loud and clear."

Saved by the Hel!

dink said...

"Please try to stay on topic.
Best,
H."

But...but...but... I just finished all the links and read all the posts! I had to wonder into the desert and meditate upon the concept of moral matrices... I just got back and now I can't rant!?!?!

And I had all these incredible stories from a guy who just got back from Iraq. Give us some structure here, Hell: is it only religion you'd like us to shut up about or everything besides the economic disaster?

yoyomo said...

Dink,
Once a new post goes up we're pretty much free to discuss anything of substance on the old threads so sock it to me baby.

yoyomo said...

As I noted on a recent thread, now that Sri Lanka had Chinese cover from western and Indian meddling the war would be over in short order.One less source of leverage for outside meddlers to hold over Sri Lanka.

dink said...

"Once a new post goes up we're pretty much free to discuss anything "

It be great if Hell could confirm that. I mean, wouldn't it be ironic if I'm the one thats banned from Sudden Debt? After Greenie repeatedly called him an idiot, Deb described the genitalia of her former conquests, anonymous racists use vile slurs, and you/Thai/Marcus regularly get into street-rat-crazy-brawls? Sometimes a dink has to take a break from the over-leveraged, unsustainable U.S. economy and instead discuss camel spiders and Antonov aircraft.

And Yo, he might be more lenient if you'd stop trying to convert everyone to orthodox Judaism.

yoyomo said...

"And Yo, he might be more lenient if you'd stop trying to convert everyone to orthodox Judaism."

See my rationale to Hel on the next thread. No explanation of finance would be accurate w/o looking at the motives/objectives of those who control a substantial portion of the financial system. I don't think I've made any totally unsubstantiated claims.

Camel spiders; some of those soldiers are depraved putting mice and lizards in buckets with those pseudo-spiders and filming the carnage. I was surprised that their pincers can break the mouse's bones; I could hear the crunching.

What about the aircraft?

Debra said...

Geez, Yoyo, I have been lazing around and reading some of your links :
On topic : the plight of the child actors in Slumdog Millionaire COULD BE a textbook demonstration for just why throwing money at problems is NOT ENOUGH. And this should really be obvious to everyone, I think. What is really interesting in the link is the "naiveté" of the journalist who wrote the article, and who represents US, by the way. It is evident that he/she ASSUMES that money solves all problems and is thus ASTONISHED that it does not..
Off/on topic : yoyo, you know the link to the article about Zionist "manipulation", resulting in the exode of Irakian Jews, really sounds a lot like...
MEIN KAMPF.
As it turns out, I presume (perhaps wrongly...) that I am one of the few people here to have opened up Mein Kampf because I was curious, because I felt that if we did not collectively open it up, things would go worse for us for our collective ignorance.
Mein Kampf's tone is very much the tone of this article, and Hitler was no dummy.
But some comments to put all this in perspective : 1) as an ENTITY (I will not say what kind...) the Jewish people has been around for much longer than any other, hasn't it ? And it defies the general cultural LAW of integration. And it did not achieve its perennity by throwing big parties and inviting everyone to BELONG. (I said that in the post that disappeared...)
Non integration, for the better, and for the worse, for the two are inseparable aren't they ?
2) The religion of the Book, of which the Jews are the oldest proponents, lives, and breathes SYMBOLS. And Jews who are educated in their faith are like fish in water where symbols are concerned. They know what they are, how they work, and what to do with them.
And they have no artificially, culturally created inhibitions to dull their understanding.
So... should it astonish ANYONE here or elsewhere that where MONEY is concerned (filthy lucre, that most pernicious of all symbols...) they are masters at dealing with/in it ?
Christian culture instilled tremendous inhibitions in its members that hindered (and still hinder, by the way...) OUR understanding of what money was/is.
Must we really look with ENVY, HATRED on our brother Jew because he does not share our inhibitions ? (And Protestant culture shares fewer inhibitions about money than Catholic culture does...)
I say this as someone who is really dedicated these days to circumventing this "symbol" as much as possible. Trying to discover and reinject "gratuity" into our lives. Is it an accident that the word that we now attach to something that we do not draw into the money trap is "free" ?
What could this mean to/for us ?
Are we "free" too, to the extent that we do not allow ourselves to be drawn into the money trap ?
We will be happier when we manage to not attach a price tag to everything on this planet...

Debra said...

Dink, "genitalia" is one of those nasty "words" that I try to forget that I know.
Now I KNOW what my mission is on this blog : it's to remind all you GENTS that there are STILL words/expressions like "private parts" that you can ressuscitate from oblivion and bypass the medicalese...
Right, Thai ? :-)

yoyomo said...

I never bothered reading Mein Kampf because it is impossible to discuss it without being accused of being a Jew hater. Maybe some day my curiosity will get the better of me.

dink said...

"so what about the camel (pseudo) spiders"

They're everywhere. They're not dangerous really (except psychologically). They chase after soldiers for shade...

Some soldiers suck on little pieces of C4 to get high.

The Russians pilots are full-on drunk and insane. They'll land those huge Antonovs in broad daylight. If something is damaged, they don't bother consulting with engineers if a hammer and/or duct tape will suffice (the Boeing employees at the party were traumatized). They get paid in cash which is doled out with a tape measure since no one has time to count it.

Sunnis take the Book of Abraham very seriously and believe dark skin is the mark of Cain apparently. So KBR (Halliburton) subcontracts Ugandans to act as guards for generals and such. The Iraqis won't get near them for fear of getting cursed. Turns out the Ugandans are really nice guys who always give hugs to the soldiers.

Cops called up from the military reserves still get full cop pay on top of the military pay.

Soldiers won't stop adopting the local feral dogs. When they bite someone they have to decapitate the dog and send the head to Germany within 72 hours for rabies tests. The soldiers won't let their pets be beheaded so they find random dogs to fill in.

There is no electrical infrastructure; everything is run off kerosene for the locals. Its the children's chores to fill up the machines with fuel and they are very frequently burnt in the process. So about 7 or 8 times everyday helicopters are sent out to get the kids and bring them to the US hospital.

Many spouses ask that the soldiers not call from Iraq because the sirens and missiles in the background are too upsetting.

The stories were just amazing. It was just surreal. I highly recommend picking up a conversation with any vet you happen to meet.

yoyomo said...

You've been a sheltered little dink, haven't you? I've never been to war (thankfully) but I pay close enough attention to the unvarnished news to have a good idea of what both sides are exposed to. As bad as it is for the soldiers, they at least go to bed knowing their children are safe back home. Imagine what it's like for the people under occupation.

"Sunnis take the Book of Abraham very seriously and believe dark skin is the mark of Cain apparently."

I would take that with a grain of salt; look up Bilal in Wikipedia. Sunnis are very reverential to all of Mohamed's companions. And all Moslems regard books of scripture prior to the koran as inherently unreliable as they haven't been preserved in their original form. They probably just think the Ugandans are cannibals or eat dog meat which would make them unclean.

Did you see the above 5/17 links I left for you on Vermont survival farming (7:03 AM) and Slumdog (1:10 PM)?